More on Predictions of the Collapse of "Emerging Church" in 2008: A Response to the Tone of the Conversation
Yesterday I wrote that Kester Brewin has predicted that the Emerging Church will collapse in 2008, and that there was a post at Emergent Village that expanded on Brewin's prediction, with Brewin himself offering more details on the thought.
That post has generated much and varied discussion, but this morning I noticed a shift in the tone of that discussion. Consider the following comments:
Deb Jan 5, 09:43 AM
Emerging Church? New ways to present the gospel? All these big new fangled words like “unpack” and “organic conversation”. Why don’t you all get on your faces and beg God to forgive you all, and forget about all these other books and start reading The Book. I don’t know how I stumbled on this thing. Does anyone on here know about The Holy Spirit? Oh and that God chooses who will be saved, not these characters like Rick Warren in Hawaiian shirts.
shang di ai li Jan 5, 11:59 AM
Thank you Deb you make me wonder if God knew what He was doing picking shepherds and astrologers over the people of the Book to herald HIS GLORIOUS APPEARING then I look at the throne and realise it is already occupied not by me not by you and I bow in awe before Him
Layla Jan 5, 12:42 PM
I’m with you Deb. This seems to be part of the emergent mind-set – being a “person of the Book” apparently is not seen as a noble thing. That’s post-modernism for you – being uncertain, being vague and being in conversation on truth rather than convinced of it is the new humility, the new virtuousness. You stay on track, girl, the road is narrow and few will find it.
About the demise of whatever emergent is, like John MacArthur says, if it has nothing to do with scripture, nothing to do with God, it will not last. In this day of media mania, these fads burn out all the quicker.
Doug Jan 5, 03:13 PM
I’m with you also, Deb. Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). I view that statement as good news. It is the end of confusion. It is the end of ambiguity. It is the end of wishy-washy postmodernist ideas. It is simply good news! When I became a Christian it was a relief and a joy to finally know the truth about God, to know who He is, to understand His nature, and to walk in His will thru His indwelling Spirit. The issue is that the leaders of the Emergent Movement are promoting notions of salvation by means other than by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone. Jesus’ exclusive claim is, quite simply, a source of embarrassment their to universalist ideas.
Kaye Jan 5, 05:22 PM
I am new to this site and was becoming very alarmed…until I read Deb’s post and those that have supported her view since.
God always knows who is humble before Him, no matter what station they hold in this life and Doug hit the mark when he pointed out that salvation by any other means than the way simply put forth in the Word leads to destruction. It’s really not that complicated and there should be nothing left for us to build…we are just to stand on what Jesus has already built.
I felt compelled to chime in, and wrote the following:
"A reply to Deb, Shang, Layla, Doug and Kaye:
Brothers and sisters in Christ,
My heart is warmed by the words that you’ve written, and saddened by the tone in which you’ve written them. Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; yes, the Book is our source; and yes, salvation is by grace through faith alone. But it troubles me to sense the subtle tone of anger rising up through your words when your fellow brothers and sisters strive, by conversation, to struggle to grasp the fullness of those human phrases, driven by nothing more than the desire to know the fullness of the living God revealed in Jesus Christ. Should we not instead rejoice in the conversation, one that began some 2,000 years ago, a conversation that litters the pages of the Book we cherish? Do we not trust the Spirit to guide that conversation, to lead us to clearer and fuller understanding of He who is the Truth? Must we always shudder and fear and react with anger when we see conversation steering in wider directions, rather than engaging in it, in love, and by the Spirit doing our part to guide it back to where it must go? Yes, Jesus said He is the Truth, but he also strove to communicate that Truth through, among other things, conversation; conversation with those that were both near and far to that Truth, in love; not choking His listeners with Truth, but gently nudging them, through parables, through mysterious riddles to answer His baffling actions, TRUSTING that the seeds He sowed, though some would be squelched, would multiply, thirty-fold, sixty-fold, a hundred-fold. Please understand, my brothers and sisters, that our fellow brothers and sisters are not in essence talking about our Lord, but about the face and character of His church, His body, His people, and that conversation arose because they were greatly troubled with the direction that that body was taking, as was Paul, as was Luther. May the conversation never die, and may His disciples never fear it.
Grace and Peace,
Raffi"
Once again,
Grace and Peace,
Raffi
That post has generated much and varied discussion, but this morning I noticed a shift in the tone of that discussion. Consider the following comments:
Deb Jan 5, 09:43 AM
Emerging Church? New ways to present the gospel? All these big new fangled words like “unpack” and “organic conversation”. Why don’t you all get on your faces and beg God to forgive you all, and forget about all these other books and start reading The Book. I don’t know how I stumbled on this thing. Does anyone on here know about The Holy Spirit? Oh and that God chooses who will be saved, not these characters like Rick Warren in Hawaiian shirts.
shang di ai li Jan 5, 11:59 AM
Thank you Deb you make me wonder if God knew what He was doing picking shepherds and astrologers over the people of the Book to herald HIS GLORIOUS APPEARING then I look at the throne and realise it is already occupied not by me not by you and I bow in awe before Him
Layla Jan 5, 12:42 PM
I’m with you Deb. This seems to be part of the emergent mind-set – being a “person of the Book” apparently is not seen as a noble thing. That’s post-modernism for you – being uncertain, being vague and being in conversation on truth rather than convinced of it is the new humility, the new virtuousness. You stay on track, girl, the road is narrow and few will find it.
About the demise of whatever emergent is, like John MacArthur says, if it has nothing to do with scripture, nothing to do with God, it will not last. In this day of media mania, these fads burn out all the quicker.
Doug Jan 5, 03:13 PM
I’m with you also, Deb. Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). I view that statement as good news. It is the end of confusion. It is the end of ambiguity. It is the end of wishy-washy postmodernist ideas. It is simply good news! When I became a Christian it was a relief and a joy to finally know the truth about God, to know who He is, to understand His nature, and to walk in His will thru His indwelling Spirit. The issue is that the leaders of the Emergent Movement are promoting notions of salvation by means other than by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone. Jesus’ exclusive claim is, quite simply, a source of embarrassment their to universalist ideas.
Kaye Jan 5, 05:22 PM
I am new to this site and was becoming very alarmed…until I read Deb’s post and those that have supported her view since.
God always knows who is humble before Him, no matter what station they hold in this life and Doug hit the mark when he pointed out that salvation by any other means than the way simply put forth in the Word leads to destruction. It’s really not that complicated and there should be nothing left for us to build…we are just to stand on what Jesus has already built.
I felt compelled to chime in, and wrote the following:
"A reply to Deb, Shang, Layla, Doug and Kaye:
Brothers and sisters in Christ,
My heart is warmed by the words that you’ve written, and saddened by the tone in which you’ve written them. Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; yes, the Book is our source; and yes, salvation is by grace through faith alone. But it troubles me to sense the subtle tone of anger rising up through your words when your fellow brothers and sisters strive, by conversation, to struggle to grasp the fullness of those human phrases, driven by nothing more than the desire to know the fullness of the living God revealed in Jesus Christ. Should we not instead rejoice in the conversation, one that began some 2,000 years ago, a conversation that litters the pages of the Book we cherish? Do we not trust the Spirit to guide that conversation, to lead us to clearer and fuller understanding of He who is the Truth? Must we always shudder and fear and react with anger when we see conversation steering in wider directions, rather than engaging in it, in love, and by the Spirit doing our part to guide it back to where it must go? Yes, Jesus said He is the Truth, but he also strove to communicate that Truth through, among other things, conversation; conversation with those that were both near and far to that Truth, in love; not choking His listeners with Truth, but gently nudging them, through parables, through mysterious riddles to answer His baffling actions, TRUSTING that the seeds He sowed, though some would be squelched, would multiply, thirty-fold, sixty-fold, a hundred-fold. Please understand, my brothers and sisters, that our fellow brothers and sisters are not in essence talking about our Lord, but about the face and character of His church, His body, His people, and that conversation arose because they were greatly troubled with the direction that that body was taking, as was Paul, as was Luther. May the conversation never die, and may His disciples never fear it.
Grace and Peace,
Raffi"
Once again,
Grace and Peace,
Raffi
Raffi,
On the Emerging Church Movement I take the position of Gamaliel in Acts 5. After giving several illustrations of movements that eventually fizzled, he proposed the following.
"38. . ., for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
I do think that it is collapsing and I think the answer is in verse 39 above.
Raffi,
Thanks for chiming in over on the EV blog! Your gracious thoughts and words are very much appreciated.
And I'm really encouraged by Tandy's comment as well (quoting Gamaliel). How true.
Praise God!
Steve K.
Tandy,
I think Raffi's post was about the emerging church loosing it's label "emerging," not dying as an organic movement.
...Raffi?